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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  AmigaOS 4K?
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amigang 
AmigaOS 4K?
Posted on 11-Jun-2014 20:35:09
#1 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1545
From: Cheshire, England

Just wondered what is the higest supported resolution on AmigaOS4 and is there any plans or draw back with supporting 4k, not that it really needed, but just wondered as 4K monitors are starting appear.

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number6 
Re: AmigaOS 4K?
Posted on 11-Jun-2014 20:52:35
#2 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 10972
From: In the village

@amigang

Somewhat related and I'd be interested in hearing it addressed...

There are specific codecs, most notably h265/VP9 which will likely prove to be an issue here. While NG a/v speed is chasing Hidef and in some case even complex 720p, it's worth noting:

Quote:
HEVC was designed to substantially improve coding efficiency compared to H.264/MPEG-4 AVC HP, i.e. to reduce bitrate requirements by half with comparable image quality, at the expense of increased computational complexity.


Unless I'm totally off base "at the expense of" means you'll need more computing power than we currently see for NG systems. Possible exception being AROS.

#6

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Vistaus 
Re: AmigaOS 4K?
Posted on 11-Jun-2014 21:02:01
#3 ]
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Joined: 29-Jul-2013
Posts: 332
From: Unknown

@number6

1080p works fine on my AmigaOne 500 with RadeonHD in 1920x1080 resolution. AmigaOS 4 is even more beautiful on 1080p :)

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KimmoK 
Re: AmigaOS 4K?
Posted on 11-Jun-2014 21:07:26
#4 ]
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Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5192
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

Not aware of any limitation yet...
Things like DVI dual link is said to work already.

(not the dual head & dual monitor with single gpu, but dual link for higher reolutions)

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Daedalus 
Re: AmigaOS 4K?
Posted on 11-Jun-2014 21:43:24
#5 ]
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Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1680
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

I seem to remember that there's a limit of 16,384x16,384 in the actual setting up of a screen in software, even under OS3.x. So the only limitation of resolution would be hardware and drivers as I see it...

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Daedalus 
Re: AmigaOS 4K?
Posted on 11-Jun-2014 21:51:59
#6 ]
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Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1680
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

Okay, just checked there, it seems my OS4.1 setup can do up to 4032x4096, and an OS3 AGA machine lists 16384x16384... I suspect the limitation is drivers, but either way it's capable of opening UHDTV (which is sometimes labelled 4k) resolutions, though OS4.1 seems to fall slightly short of cinema-standard 4k. Maybe someone more familiar with the driver subsystem can give us more detail?

Last edited by Daedalus on 11-Jun-2014 at 09:57 PM.

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noXLar 
Re: AmigaOS 4K?
Posted on 11-Jun-2014 21:52:17
#7 ]
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Joined: 8-May-2003
Posts: 687
From: Norway

@Vistaus

yep, but he asked about 1920x1080 X 4 screenmode :)

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KimmoK 
Re: AmigaOS 4K?
Posted on 12-Jun-2014 5:53:33
#8 ]
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Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5192
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@Daedalus

I remember that some limit was 32000x32000 on the classic?
(perhaps I remember wrong... it might have been max workbench scrollable window size + real limits came from chip RAM amount?)

(before I got RTG for my classic my favourite screen was some 700x1000, 700x580 visible, the rest virtual ... too bad SAM440ep feels more limited as I can not use HD screen with virtual extra area ... modern 64mb is less than classic 2mb)

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Severin 
Re: AmigaOS 4K?
Posted on 12-Jun-2014 12:42:46
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Aug-2003
Posts: 2740
From: Gloucestershire UK

@amigang

As I see it, the big drawbacks are:

For a big screen with low ppi:

Fitting the monitor on your desk.
Sitting far enough away from the monitor to see all of it.

For a smaller screen with high ppi:

Tiny little writting, icons and pointer.
The need to scale most things up to see them.

Problems with both:

Slower refresh speeds due to the amount of data.
Far higher memory usage.

I suspect you'll end up using far more system resources (and money) to get a display that looks very similar to what you use now, writing and icons have to be a certain size to be useful. They will look sharper though.

If you want to see what UHDMI would look like go into workbench prefs and set icon size values to half what they are now, same for fonts and amidock, shrink all borders down in GUI prefs too if you really want to waste time.

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KimmoK 
Re: AmigaOS 4K?
Posted on 12-Jun-2014 12:53:58
#10 ]
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Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5192
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@Severin

-1

Having 1024x768 on classic with RTG sounded superb, but virtual screen was almost as usefull.
With my SAM 1920x1080 does not feel that there is more space than on my classic screen... but perhaps it's also because I have used to high res at work.

Often it can be seen that the screen space is wasted with unneccessary stuff.
Like if you try to use openoffice on 1024x768 display, all the icons and bars fill most of the display and document is seen via small peek hole,

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Deniil715 
Re: AmigaOS 4K?
Posted on 12-Jun-2014 13:34:31
#11 ]
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Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 4201
From: Sweden

@amigang

If you mean 4k video/movies, there is a long way to go. We can currently not do 2k (1080p) and barely 1k (720p) on the X1000 with the normal HD codec H.264.

But as far as screen resolution go, you are only limited by gfx memory (and some way bigger limit somewhere in the OS, and possibly driver limits for older gfx cards as people mentioned).

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noXLar 
Re: AmigaOS 4K?
Posted on 12-Jun-2014 15:52:26
#12 ]
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Joined: 8-May-2003
Posts: 687
From: Norway

@Deniil715

hmm.. something wrong her..

1080p is 1920x1080 resolution but that is in standard consumer
HD terms when aspect ratio is 16:9

2k is the standardized cinema resolution at 2048x1080

its almost the same as 1080p but 2k has aspect ratio at 17:9

4k tv's is not real 4k, since they using 4k Ultra HD standard (16:9) , be course of
the different aspect ratio from real 4k (17:9 Ratio)

UHD TV (4k) 3840 x 2160 16:9 = 1920x1080 x4 = 8294400 pixels
Cinema (Real 4k) 4096 2160 17:9 = 2048x1080 x4 = 8847360 pixels





Last edited by noXLar on 12-Jun-2014 at 04:10 PM.

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Severin 
Re: AmigaOS 4K?
Posted on 12-Jun-2014 18:06:16
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Aug-2003
Posts: 2740
From: Gloucestershire UK

@KimmoK

Quote:

-1

Having 1024x768 on classic with RTG sounded superb, but virtual screen was almost as usefull.
With my SAM 1920x1080 does not feel that there is more space than on my classic screen... but perhaps it's also because I have used to high res at work.


Try this... go into gui prefs and choose reset to defaults in the menus and use. in font prefs set all fonts to size 8 or 11, and in workbench and amidock prefs set max icon sizes to 24 (maybe you sgould backup envarc:sys first).

This is roughly a classic 1024 x 768 setup, you will notice you have a lot more screen space. It doesn't 'feel' like there is more space normally because everything on the screen is bigger.

Quote:
Often it can be seen that the screen space is wasted with unneccessary stuff. Like if you try to use openoffice on 1024x768 display, all the icons and bars fill most of the display and document is seen via small peek hole,


If you were using similar software 10-15 years ago when that screen size was commonly in use the icons and bars would be far smaller. The GUI is designed to use the available screen space, give a GUI designer more space and they won't fit more options in like a programmer would, they'll increase the gadgets size so they can put higher quality images in them.

Last edited by Severin on 12-Jun-2014 at 06:21 PM.
Last edited by Severin on 12-Jun-2014 at 06:18 PM.

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Deniil715 
Re: AmigaOS 4K?
Posted on 13-Jun-2014 8:00:10
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 4201
From: Sweden

@noXLar

I simplified a bit, going roughly on number of pixels of resolutions most people (like me) are used to.

But if 4k is actually 4x2k then our poor Amigas would need at least 8 times more horse power than the X1000 has to play it, or a codec driver to get the gfx card to do it.

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phoenixkonsole 
Re: AmigaOS 4K?
Posted on 13-Jun-2014 14:22:25
#15 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Nov-2009
Posts: 1770
From: Unknown

@Deniil715
Most supported ATI hd Cards Support only around 2048 x 1536. So there is no way yet until better gfx Cards are supported.

Peformcance wise my Sam733 is stressed with 1080p but flies with 1024x768. A compromise is 1280x720 for Workbench stuff but not games or videos.

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KimmoK 
Re: AmigaOS 4K?
Posted on 13-Jun-2014 18:06:10
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5192
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

5000 and 6000 series: "Max resolution: 2560x1600"
7000 series: "Maximum resolution: 4096x160 @ 60 Hz"


Btw, has "xbox 720 GPU" been tested yet on A1x1000?
( http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/151367-amd-launches-radeon-7790-meet-the-xbox-720s-gpu )

http://hdrlab.org.nz/projects/amiga-os-4-projects/radeonhd-driver/radeonhd-driver-hardware-compatibility/
(7770 and 7970 works... 7790 not tested?

UPDATE: to me it seems we have already 2x faster GPU than the new xbox.
http://anandtech.com/bench/GPU14/839

(if AMD Radeon HD 7990 works on A1, we have up-to 5*faster GPU than the latest game consoles? too bad that only in 2D. )

Specs etc:
http://anandtech.com/show/7930/the-amd-radeon-r9-295x2-review
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6915/amd-radeon-hd-7990-review-7990-gets-official/
Nice that we are only year behind the lates tech in GPU HW (only SW is missing).

Peak Shader Throughput
xbox360
0.24 TFLOPS
aboxone
1.31 TFLOPS
ps4
1.84 TFLOPS
Amiga with Radeon HD7970
3.8 TFLOPS



Once 3D is done, go for the OpenCL
http://techreport.com/review/22192/amd-radeon-hd-7970-graphics-processor/8


OK, I stop.

Last edited by KimmoK on 13-Jun-2014 at 07:00 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 13-Jun-2014 at 06:56 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 13-Jun-2014 at 06:37 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 13-Jun-2014 at 06:36 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 13-Jun-2014 at 06:20 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 13-Jun-2014 at 06:19 PM.

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amigang 
Re: AmigaOS 4K?
Posted on 14-Jun-2014 11:07:39
#17 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1545
From: Cheshire, England

I was only really talking about workbench support not really playing movies or games in 4k I know that would be a long way off if ever, and I dont see it being necessary for a long time anyway. I do wonder what a classic Amiga would look like scaled up on a 4K screen. In actual fact how many 640x400 screens could you fit on a 4K?

Last edited by amigang on 14-Jun-2014 at 11:12 AM.

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Fransexy 
Re: AmigaOS 4K?
Posted on 14-Jun-2014 14:01:35
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Jun-2004
Posts: 2334
From: Elche (Alicante), spain

@amigang

Quote:

amigang wrote:
I was only really talking about workbench support not really playing movies or games in 4k I know that would be a long way off if ever, and I dont see it being necessary for a long time anyway. I do wonder what a classic Amiga would look like scaled up on a 4K screen. In actual fact how many 640x400 screens could you fit on a 4K?



Then as someone has said workbench has a high limit for resolutions, the problem is drivers and captable cards but not the workbench itself. There was 2048x2048 captable cards back in the 80's (but only in two colours but i think that it was a limit of the memory and price in these days). Another thing that Amiga was ahead of their time

Last edited by Fransexy on 14-Jun-2014 at 02:02 PM.

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broadblues 
Re: AmigaOS 4K?
Posted on 14-Jun-2014 16:20:27
#19 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4419
From: Portsmouth England

@amigang

I don't know which cards can output such hi resolutions but there are afew factors to consider.

1. Workbench can handle the actual screen fine, you can verify this by creating an autoscroll screen with the resolution higher than the mode.

2. If compositing is enabled, and the maximum texture size of the card does not reach the size of the screen you want then composites fall back to siftware and will be extremely slow.

3. Other large blitting opeartion may slow down fr similar reasons.

The onl;y real way to know is to suck it and see.....

AS to the gfx / text size issue, when I double resolution I incrase fonts size by 1.5 . THis gives agood compromise between more screen real estate and readable font sizes.

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amigang 
Re: AmigaOS 4K?
Posted on 15-Jul-2014 16:22:27
#20 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1545
From: Cheshire, England


I guess AmigaOS4 can support 4K


video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZCla-omFyA

So for my birthday and because I recently got a lot of overtime at work, treated myself to the Samsung U28D590 28" Monitor which is a 4K monitor that just came out, connected up my AmigaOne X1000 and was very surprise to see it supported the highest resolution, even AMD says there HD4750 doesn't officially support this resolution, so props to the driver supports, it runs only at 30hz in 4K via the HDMI, use Display ports on my PC that does do 4k at 60hz. At lower resolutions on the Amiga its back up to 60hz, and to be honest I doubt I will use such a high resolution much on my Amiga as it does have a performance hit, plus sometimes the hole system can freeze for a min (only happens at 4K) and to read the text it just a bit too tiny, but its pretty cool that it support it.

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