Troika >>

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@Aminicle

Was that post aimed at me?

If yes.. My answer was a joke!

Last edited by Samwel on 27-May-2006 at 08:16 AM.
Last edited by Samwel on 27-May-2006 at 08:15 AM.

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@Rogue

Quote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but on the topic of Troika, there are no customers yet. All that Troika is doing is telling what they are doing and/or planning.

Quote:

Again, we've not even been approached by Elbox concerning a port for Shark PPC, I for one find it extremely unrealistic to think that they will start this when OS 4 is released.

How can you defend Troika for simple informing people of their plans, while attacking Elbox for informing us of their intentions for the SharkPPC?

The Shark PPC is an add on for the Mediator, and will probably have a more limited market as a result of being a classic upgrade. I can understand why Elbox are waiting, yes the Shark may never come to light, but then maybe nothing will come of Troika either?

At least Elbox have a track record, I bet most classic users here have a bit of Elbox hardware somewhere in their machine, whether it be a Mediator, a 4xIDE splitter, memory upgrade, accelerator, keyboard interface, tower, the list goes on.

Sorry to rant but I get fed up of people bad mouthing Elbox - they don't deserve it.

Last edited by dan.hutch on 27-May-2006 at 09:30 AM.
Last edited by dan.hutch on 27-May-2006 at 09:30 AM.
Last edited by dan.hutch on 27-May-2006 at 09:29 AM.
Last edited by dan.hutch on 27-May-2006 at 09:28 AM.

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I love this! Everytime the blue guys (negative and/or MOS+Pegasos owners) comes in in droves to complain they're REALLY scared MorhpOS will fall behind..

Some of these "blue guys" have a Pegasos, but a lot don't. I don't really think anybody is concerned about MorphOS "falling behind." MorphOS development obviously has a pace of its own (slow and steady) and software is pretty much a separate issue anyway. So there's no point in trying to deflect criticism by bringing up issues like that. Let's look at the issue at hand.

What strikes me as really strange is how Troika is accepted as a bona fide hardware outfit on the basis of what so far has been not only extremely inept business skills and sketchy technical information, but actually information that showed they didn't know what they were doing -- for example, the first "Deluxe Paint" rendering of the motherboard, which was ripped into by people who had real hardware experience. Then the pictures of the parts shipping envelopes, etc. Exactly how does that indicate anything about Troika's progress or ability? Now photos of parts of boards, and promises of yet another product when there has been no sign of the first one yet.

Finally, Troika (aka Josh_b, at least, in a recent thread where he was actively reading and posting) has intentionally avoided answering direct questions about whether or not they even have a license agreement for AmigaOS, and they refuse to let their identities be known. To me this is no way to build confidense, but only invites questions and concern. I think the common sense reaction is skeptism. If you saw this kind of behavior in any other product area or market, you'd immediately say "scam", but as ever-hopeful Amiga enthusiasts you grasp at straws even as flimsy as this Troika story.

Maybe Troika in fact does have the ability to produce something, but the way they've gone about it has been so inept that they really have deserved the criticism they've gotten so far. It doesn't matter what "color" the critics are, all it takes to be one is for the person to have his/her eyes open.

I don't mean this to be insulting to anyone, but I just would like to ask Troika and supporters such as yourself how could they possibly expect to not be questioned and criticized (by people other than the ever-hopeful) when they behave as they do?

-- gary_c

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From the Troika interview in Total Amiga:

Quote:

We operate very differently than many other companies, and feel that fluffed up news releases that end up empty, are not worth our time or your readers. Therefore don't expect us to have a major news release on OS 4. It would be unprofessional to comment on our business dealings and we would rather a demo a working product.

So why this annoucement? Cropped photos of a motherboard and talk of your business dealings don't seem to quite fit with your earlier 'no nonsense' ethos.

There quite a few Amiga shows coming up over the summer, why not book a stand at AmiRevival and demo us a real product.

@gary_c

Well said, that sums it up very well.

@Rogue

Quote:

Again, we've not even been approached by Elbox concerning a port for SharkPPC, I for one find it extremely unrealistic to think that they will start this when OS 4 is released.

Have you already been approached by Troika concerning a port for the Amy'05 and "High-End" mainboard (2 times EUR 20.000)?

@Rogue who said Quote:

Problem is that most of you people do not realize under what conditions the Amiga market has to work

Well, if we get years of announcements without any actual results, I hope you'll excuse me for suggesting that it doesN'T seem to be working at all. The customer shouldn't HAVE to understand the conditions - if companies would only avoid announcing things they haven't achieved yet! Amazingly, Troika doesn't seem to have learn this.

I am glad to hear some noise from Troika again, but **if** after their 6 months(?) of silence they haven't moved noticably closer to releasing anything, I think you'll have to expect a few of us might get tired of more empty announcements. At some point it has to be do or die, and at the moment I have to wonder if we are closer to "die"...

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@gary_c

I thought I explained that my comment was a joke?
Well.. IT WAS A JOKE!

Blue is also when someone is down or sad (negative people). That's also what
I meant by blue people aswell as the usual MOS people "critisizing" announcements
for OS4 hardware.

And yes, I believe Troika when they release hardware and not before. Fine?
Before that it's only talk. But really, who cares what they do? They haven't stolen any
money, offered prepay or promised any t-shirts so what's the problem???
You people care too much. Especially those that never will buy OS4+hardware anyway.
Why is that?

Btw do you think ANYONE is so stupid they invest alot of money in producing hardware
for OS4 without knowing they will be able to sell them with OS4?
Usually you get that out of the way BEFORE making the actual hardware, no?

Last edited by Samwel on 27-May-2006 at 11:19 AM.

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@Troika
I have some serious questions about your announcment:

1. You say you are at "version 1.4 of Amy'05". At exactly what version do you expect to release a product? Personally I would have expected v1.0 to be the first release!

2.What does Apple's x86 decisions have to do with you? That seems totally irrelevant to me. What other changes have occured in the PowerPC market that affected the design of your board? These seem weak excuses for delays, from my POV as just a user.

3.Why announce this "high end" board if you have had prior experience of 3rd parties failing to deliver? If you aren't sure, why make another (potentially vapour) announcement? Seems like a good way to lower you credibility further IMHO.

4.On the most important point, the reason for your delays (& presumably your silence), you simply give a throw-away comment at the end suggesting this was due to 3rd parties failing to deliver. Deliver what exactly? Unless your board-designer walked out, or some of your (hopefully standard) components were suddently withdrawn (which seems unlikely), I cannot see why you'd have major delays. No need to give names, but SOME kind of details would make this sound less made-up.

Last edited by ChrisH on 27-May-2006 at 11:23 AM.

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Quote:

Problem is that most of you people do not realize under what conditions the Amiga market has to work, but of course, bitching and trolling is always easy.

I realise very well under which conditions an "Amiga" hardware market would have to work, and that's exactly why I think an "Amiga" hardware market is an idiotic idea in this day and age. It's pointless and harmful.

Not sure who you're talking about, but I haven't been bitching (with the possible exception of the paragraph above ;)) or trolling. IMO the "bitching" in this thread has been inane stuff like "stop being critical" or "critical comments on a web forum will halt projects". The trolling has been limited to the announcement-announcement itself. Trolling = posting inflammatory stuff with the sole intent of eliciting responses from those who bite. Yup, I think that describes Troika's announcement-announcement alright.

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Oh, bother.

@Troika

Thank you for the photos.

When do you plan to show the prototype working?

When do you plan to show it booting OS4?

What's the expected final user price in Euros?

When do you expect to make it available?



I hope we can see OS4 booting on new hardware soon.

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@Samwel

Care to explain what this has to do with MorphOS ???


Just as a reminder, HW for/with MorphOS can be bought pretty much off the shelve, at a reasonable price and with prooven warranty.

HW that could be used for any PPC-based OS at anybodies will, contrary to dPaint-drawings announcing-announcents-announcents, case-design-contests etc which have sofar prooven very hard to support by an OS-developer

You might ask, why I still come here, well.... lets say I come for the funnies

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Samwel:
"I love this! Everytime the blue guys (negative and/or MOS+Pegasos owners) comes in in droves to
complain they're REALLY scared MorhpOS will fall behind.. "

Just so you know, I couldn't care less about MorphOS and that's no secret.
Joke or not, I must defend myself.

dan.hutch:
Couldn't agree more. Without Elbox noone would be here today. The OS4-crowd
is just too arrogant to admit it. Elbox started releasing Amiga hardware when
the Amiga was long gone in most peoples' heads.

Without Elbox, Rouge wouldn't be working on AmigaOS4 and Samface wouldn't
talk about Amiga Inc. There would have been no Amiga Inc.

Quote:

Even when someone is only spitting out negativism here, the fact that he is still here wants to say he still believes in it ( altough sometimes very little ) .

At last someone with some sense. If you look at my earlier comments about Troika, I was guarded but hopeful that something would result. Now it's been...how long?...and they have yet to produce anything but announcements. If the whole thing isn't a hoax, then I'd still be very leery about purchasing a product from a "company" as inept Troika has proven to be. I have similar feelings about Hyperion, though at least they finally managed to come up with a product.

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Here for the whimpering end

@gary_c

Quote:

Finally, Troika (aka Josh_b, at least, in a recent thread where he was actively reading and posting) has intentionally avoided answering direct questions about whether or not they even have a license agreement for AmigaOS, and they refuse to let their identities be known.

If you really -did- know the protocol/procedure for bringing a product to the Amiga
community, you would never have used these words to express your thought and concern.
Also, since Ian has posted here at AW -and- you have seen fit to publish Josh's
first name and last initial, how can you say "they refuse to let their identities
be known"?
Gary, I understand your concern here...but please note that people -can- contact
AmigaInc, Troika, ACK, Hyperion, and the others -and- make progress by doing so.

In the early days it seems people were given some time before they got ripped apart
in the forums. Alan's case springs to mind here. Just because patience is running a
bit thin at this point is no reason not to show the same respect to the people who
are pouring their heart and soul into supporting us, many times at the risk of great
disturbances to their daily lives.
Please don't judge the present solely according to the past.

#6

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*Secrecy has served us so well*

Quote:

If you really -did- know the protocol/procedure for bringing a product to the Amiga community, you would never have used these words to express your thought and concern.

No, I guess I don't know the protocol for bringing a product to the Amiga community, if Troika is doing it the right way. To me, it is very strange. I prefer to know who is involved in a project, and like to see confirmation of things along the way. Stringing people along for many, many months with odd contests and intentionally uninformative photos does not seem like proper business procedures.
Quote:

Also, since Ian has posted here at AW -and- you have seen fit to publish Josh's first name and last initial, how can you say "they refuse to let their identities be known"?

I know Ian from the Phoenix consortium days, but to me "Josh" is only a name. I have no idea who he is or what his skills/capabilties/resources are. And I guess there is a third person in Troika? No idea about that person either. My point is that a the credibility of a project is no stronger than the credibility of the people involved. Ian has done smaller projects before but I don't know how he fits into Troika or even if he is still involved. This is very much a case having to rely on blind faith, it seems to me.

Quote:

Gary, I understand your concern here...but please note that people -can- contact AmigaInc, Troika, ACK, Hyperion, and the others -and- make progress by doing so.

Really? Apparently some can't and some can't. For the sake of people still hanging on, I hope you're right.

Quote:

Please don't judge the present solely according to the past.

There's another saying along the same lines: Those who don't learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.

-- gary_c

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@Rogue,
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but on the topic of Troika, there are no customers yet.

Hence the use of the word "potential".

Quote:

All that Troika is doing is telling what they are doing and/or planning.

You got that right!

Quote:

And yeah, it's *always* "their" fault.

Okay then, tell me how I can buy OS4?

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Here for the whimpering end

-- "While developing Amy’05 we have been investigating several good opportunities for the existing Amiga user base. We have found others with similar business interests to ours, from which we were able to form new alliances which has allowed us to begin due diligence procedures for purchasing a design of a higher end motherboard. Acquiring the rights to this motherboard will allow us to bring a higher end board to market far quicker than if we were to design one from the ground up. Also, by forming new alliances we will be able to bring the per unit cost of this motherboard down - a saving that we wish to pass on to you."

-- "After much development we are happy to report that version 1.4 of Amy'05 is nearly complete."

Is version 1.4 "nearly complete" because of the above decision, or in spite of it?

I haven't been keeping track lately, preventing me from understanding the context intended by this announcement.

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"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

Quote:

"Amiga" hardware market is an idiotic idea in this day and age. It's pointless and harmful.

"Pointless" I might agree (but so is drinking beer - and still people do it), but "harmfull" ? Harmfull ? How can the Amiga hardware market be harmfull ? Because people are not in their right mind trying to develop a piece of HW for that tiny market ? Yes, sure they (or we) need protection before they harm anyone

But maybe you're right. By the number of kids in this market, we have to make sure nobody takes advantage of them (because,I guess people are not able to make their own decisions).

(BTW: You avatar. Is thas an insane banana ?)

Chill out guys.

I feel sorry. Maybe that was too offensive. Should go back and do something productive.

I am just curious and can't wait until this stupid period is over. Imagine!

Around christmas we can focus on contents again instead of pointless discussions: "My G4PV is faster than you Troika[+] G4 :) Hah! Nahh, I'm doing fine with my PV-LT. Crap, mine is better" :)

And then the whole benchmark orgy. We will have to compare a 5200 with G3s, up to 1.7GHz G4s. Damn, that's a lot of work. Personally, I'd like to see some gfx benchmarks.

And, no. Nooo! Damn. These guys will bother us with PCIe. Means we will have to complain the the Radeon X1500 doesn't work as expected. Damn.

So many things to worry about.

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@Tjaoz

>Check the complete Elbox product list and you will see that they

Is this the "Royal They"? You're like a Genie from a bottle whenever someone mentions Elbox.

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"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde