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(Incidentally, Hyperion has been using these terms since 2001 and under US trademark law this confers a valid trademark which was not abandoned in the settlement agreement).

Considering that you *did* abandon the ability to challenge the Amiga Parties' ownership of the trademark, you might find it a tad difficult to assert your own, conflicting ownership of the very same trademark. In fact, one might say that this post of yours came dangerously close to match the definition of a Hyperion Prohibited Action...

@Umisef.

Since you don't practise law nor even have a law degree (by all means prove me wrong), I am not going to engage you in any legal debates especially about US Trademark law about which you are even less qualified to comment (again, please prove me wrong).

I can only advise you to re-read the settlement agreement carefully as the statement I made is supported by the settlement agreement language.

Probihited action ...

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I noticed on the video that the commits in the 80s have recognizable names (carl, jesup, bryce), so the entire history of the source files has been preserved (and not just a bulk CVS import in 2001).

No, not the entire history. The developers at Commdore did not use RCS in a consistent manner, repeatedly copying just the current working copy files to a make a new version of an operating system component and starting a new RCS history from scratch. This left gaps in the history. For example, the RCS logs for Kickstart 1.3 contain information which is not part of the RCS logs for Kickstart 3.1.

Also, the changes made to operating system components in the final days of Commodore had not all been checked in. The updates to scsi.device and FFS, which were released with the Amiga OS 3.9 update, were based upon reconstruction work, involving comparisons and analysis of the changes left uncommitted to the RCS history.

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I very much doubt that CBM used CVS or one of the modern source control systems,

RCS was used at Commodore, and CVS uses the same file format. It's just that RCS only provides local file system access to change history whereas CVS does this on a network level.

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so it must mean that someone at Hyperion took the source code from whatever source control system CBM was using and converted each file's history from whatever format to CVS. Any cool stories to tell?

I did the conversion and there are no cool stories to tell. The word is "tedious", not "cool". CVS uses the same file format as RCS does, but there's a bit of a problem in the fact that the RCS file format changed over the years. Mostly the issues were with recorded dates. That is, CVS had trouble converting the RCS logging information and needed manual assistance, by having the troublesome RCS files rewritten.

Of course, for the errors to surface you first had to stick everything into a repository and then try again and again to check everything out. Perform a checkout, wait until it comes to a stop, analyze and edit the offending file, start over again.

This took its time, and if I learned anything new during this process it's that RCS is probably not the kind of tool you'd want to use for more than a decade. Some of the RCS files were subtly corrupted and it took a lot of time to figure out what was wrong with them.

Should you ever find yourself in a situation where you have to stick a large number of RCS files into a more modern software configuration management system, be sure to bring a lot of time and patience...

@Samwel

No. I only pointed out that AROS code was used in OS 3.9. I should add that H&P didnt steal it. H&P contacted AROS developers and AROS developers always encouraged using their code underlining it is an AROS/Amiga Research Operating System.

I dont know if OS4 uses AROS code but although find it likely it is using those Colorwheel and Gradientslider gadgets originating from AROS. Source code is available, OS4 developers had contacts with AROS and Amiga Inc already gave their blessing for using that code in OS 3.9.

If colorwheel and gradientslider gadgets credit Georg Steger and Stephen Rupprecht then it is AROS one. Nevertheless it is not stealing.

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Amiga Developer
Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@olsen

Come to think of it, there are RCS tags in most (all?) of the header files in the NDK, so I should have realized that CBM used RCS for source control. For some reason "revision control" and "source control" didn't connect in my head

So CVS uses the same format as RCS? I didn't know that. I wonder if it was made compatible on purpose, or if one is just the descendant of the other. Thanks for doing the work, we all owe you for the time you spent recovering all those files! It sounds like it must have been really tedious, but at least now it wasn't thankless

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I can only advise you to re-read the settlement agreement carefully

Ben (it is Ben, isn't it?), you need to make up your mind. Either you believe laymen are able to comprehend the legalese of that document (in which case your "you have no law degree, so I won't discuss this with you" excuse is hollow), *or* you believe they can't (in which case you probably shouldn't tell them to re-read it). Cake, have, eat.

Oh, and I look forward to henceforth dismissing your opinions on technical matters by saying "Since you are not a practicing engineer, nor even have an engineering degree (by all means prove me wrong), you have no idea what you are talking about".

(Hint: that was a subtle way of saying "if you disagree with the message, throwing ad-hominems at the messenger is not the most convincing argument". Of course, I can only speak for the field of engineering. Maybe in the field of law, ad hominems carry more weight than factual counter-arguments....)

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So CVS uses the same format as RCS? I didn't know that. I wonder if it was made compatible on purpose, or if one is just the descendant of the other.

In its infancy CVS was a collection of scripts which in turn invoked the relevant RCS shell commands (that must have been around 1990). As CVS evolved into a single shell command, the RCS functionality was merged into its mainline code. I am not sure, but I believe the RCS code came by way of GNU RCS, and not through the original RCS written by Walter F. Tichy (around 1982).

Which is why it was such a hassle to find and repair "incompatible" RCS files: the RCS code in the CVS shell command was no longer descended from the code that originally wrote the RCS files. Although files created through CVS always read fine, backwards compatibility suffered.

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Thanks for doing the work, we all owe you for the time you spent recovering all those files! It sounds like it must have been really tedious, but at least now it wasn't thankless

I am shamelessly basking in the glory of my fifteen minutes of fame

Last edited by olsen on 10-Aug-2010 at 08:14 AM.

@Umisef

Fine, to the extent we even exchanged views on technical matters as opposed to factual matters (like you not having any indepth insight in the XMOS architecture or roadmap, in part because that would require a NDA which you have not entered into), I'm more than happy NOT to engage in ANY discussion with you.

What I find particularly amusing however is how suddenly you have become such a legal expert when you had to pull your own product Amithlon of the market, because no license agreement was in place.

Maybe you should have taken armchair lawyering up at a somewhat earlier stage in your life and not only relating to other companies' products.

But that's all water under the bridge. Like I said, I am going to stay well clear of your comments unless they contain such factually inaccurate claims that they are beyond ignoring.

Having said that, that probably means little will change.

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@HyperionMP

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What I find particularly amusing however is how suddenly you have become such a legal expert when you had to pull your own product Amithlon of the market, because no license agreement was in place.

What makes you think you are a legal expert? Having a degree doesnt make an expert.

But since you are here do you consider H&P's OS 3.9 as illegal product? According to Amiga vs Hyperion settlement its license was terminated. After all it was H&P making harm to your product by not providing source code and selling unlicensed Amiga branded products.

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Amiga Developer
Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@itix

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According to Amiga vs Hyperion settlement its license was terminated.

No, read it again. Amiga.Inc considers it terminated but HaP may not (Settlement Agreement page 15).

@pavlor

If Amiga Inc considers it terminated then Hyperion considers it terminated, too.

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Amiga Developer
Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@itix

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If Amiga Inc considers it terminated then Hyperion considers it terminated, too.

???? Why? Hyperion CAN consider it terminated, but the Agreement donesn´t force Hyperion to do it. That is my understanding - I´m no lawyer.

I couldnt find settlement agreement via google right now but there is clause Hyperion defends Amiga Inc's trademarks and interests.

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Amiga Developer
Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@thread

What an excellent thread.
Thank you guys - an enjoyable read, so far.

@itix

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I couldnt find settlement agreement via google right now but there is clause Hyperion defends Amiga Inc's trademarks and interests.

I think you mean 13. Intellectual Property Enforcement (p. 7-8), but there is nothing that could force Hyperion to do anything they (Hyperion) don´t want.
(here is link to the Settlement Agreement)

@ Hyperionmp

Whilst most, here, would agree with the fact that accusing a certain company of stealing AROS code is ridiculous and trolling......

Maybe someone from that certain company should also agree that it is not appropriate to accuse AROS devs of using commercial code.

@olsen

Looking at the beginning of the video it starts with carl, neil and then sam.

It looks as if carl and neil were writing the kernal, but I thought carl wrote it all at first ?

Who is neil and what did he work on, also sam - who is he ?

The history for the beginning of AmigaOS is very important and exciting !

AmigaOS developers never get enough credit and fame for the hard, but vital work they do.

My respect go to you also olsen, you are one of the important developers from the very beginning who has unique knowledge on how the code has changed and know the direction core developers wanted to go.

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Download 499.26 Mbps, 659.94 Mbps Upload :)

Re: "Stolen code etc"
I think all accusations that live as long as these have, and only in forums and mailing lists, while not being dealth with by a court has to be considered FUD.

Regardless of which camp, or which player is the source.

It's been more than 10 years now soon, I think it's best to consider it water under the bridge.

Having said that, it is interesting from a historical perspective to know who said what, and on the basis of what.

But I think that the best person to do so is either Trevor Dick or Brian Bagnal as they've shown that they can do so while stile accurately quoting sources.

That there still is bad blood between individuals is clearly evident. Recently I asked on morphzone.org if they would consider porting to the X1000. This was turned down by at least two MorphOS developers because of their poor personal relationship with Ben Hermans. I'm sure it's Bens claims that MorphOS contains 3.1 code that has led to this.

It seems like the developers comments about not wanting to work on the X1000 and Ben Hermans have been moderated out of the thread now (I think it was pega-1 for one, jacadcaps was perhaps the other one).

According to ASiegel the Sam440 was under "informal/formal" talks between MOS team and Acube, but MOS team had no technical motivation for it due to the Mac push they are doing, and ACube wouldn't pay the same price as bPlan/Genesi Efika did. So nothing ever came to a contract state.

So since MOS and AROS have cooperated, and OS4, or at least H&P/A Inc (in some incarnation) with OS3.5/3.9 have cooperated with AROS. There seems to be room for some pragmatic common ground as long as one can raise above individuals.

That is however the problem, our community has become so small that the remaining few who are here are very visible individuals.

So, I have to agree with Rogue. Why not just enjoy the video. And stop the FUD and let opi be right, there will not be "ein community, ein platform".

Last edited by arnljot on 10-Aug-2010 at 12:19 PM.

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A posting a day keeps the sanity away...

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It looks as if carl and neil were writing the kernal, but I thought carl wrote it all at first ?

First things first: what you see in the video is a truncated version of the Amiga operating system development history. As far as I know the original development work (Amiga Corporation was founded in 1982, spent much of its lifetime as a "stealth startup" until money ran out and eventually wound up getting acquired by Commodore, Inc. around 1984) was conducted before the operating system change logs visualized in the video even started. There are gaps in this timeline, and the presence or absence of log entries says little about the work being done.

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It looks as if carl and neil were writing the kernal, but I thought carl wrote it all at first ?

You are looking at collaborative work. My guess is that the log entries came about when Amiga Corporation in Los Gatos, CA was closing shop and developers moved to Commodore in West Chester, PA.

You see several different developers working on operating system components which they originally did not create. For example, there are no log entries at all in Intuition which refer to Robert J. Mical, the original author. But there are plenty by Jim Mackraz, Dale Luck and Bart Whitebook.

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Who is neil and what did he work on, also sam - who is he ?

"neil" would be Neil Katin. He worked on pretty much everything, as far as I can tell, from low level drivers (trackdisk.device, timer.device) to dos.library, to everybody's favourite: Workbench. Neil Katin wrote the Amiga Workbench.

"sam" would be Sam Dicker. And with Sam Dicker, you're into Amiga Corporation's video game origins. Sam Dicker was part of the group (Robert J. Mical, Jack Haeger & Sam Dicker) that came from Williams Electronics and which joined Amiga Corporation. Most famously, Sam Dicker was responsible for the audio portion of the Defender arcade game, if that name rings a bell (look it up on Wikipedia). Sam Dicker wrote the audio.device driver.

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The history for the beginning of AmigaOS is very important and exciting ! AmigaOS developers never get enough credit and fame for the hard, but vital work they do.

That's the tale of the corporate programmers. You hardly know their names, if at all. Back in the 1980'ies you could know who was involved, though. The original cast of the Apple Macintosh development group were all known by name, for example, but you would be hard pressed to name even one member of Apple's current lineup.

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My respect go to you also olsen, you are one of the important developers from the very beginning who has unique knowledge on how the code has changed and know the direction core developers wanted to go.

Hey, I've been around babysitting the Amiga operating system only since about 1995 and was either too stubborn, too curious or too stupid to let things slide and forget about the Amiga. If that makes me sort of an elder statesman of Amiga development, then I'd be really shocked...

The people who really made things happen back in the early days do not get enough credit. For a lineup, see the picture from Dale Luck's marriage (2007) as found on the Rebol web site.

Last edited by olsen on 10-Aug-2010 at 02:18 PM.
Last edited by olsen on 10-Aug-2010 at 02:10 PM.

Seriously, can a moderator please close this thread? It's become ridiculously off-topic, hijacked again by the same people that always hijack threads about AmigaOS 4.x (you know who you are).

I can only repeat again what I said before, stick to your OS of interest and leave the others alone. This video was intended for people's enjoyment, and congratulations you have managed to turn it into yet another F***ing flamefest. You must be awfully proud of yourselves.

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