Humm in answer for question 2:

"Fleecy: In the run up to Christmas we intend to realise new AmigaDE products whilst also creating a range of merchandise to tie in with the public launch of AmigaOS4.0."

Here is me hoping that I will have OS 4 by this Christmas :)) Just hoping.

Santa is going to be one busy old fat man

I bet there are two mustachio'd fat men that are even busier right now

Seriously, everyone involved needs for "full" AmigaOnes (as opposed to LinuxOnes) to be selling by the time the Christmas shopping spree comes around - this is the one time in the year when it's most likely that someone will say "oh, Amiga, I remember those, they were cool... how much is it?" while reaching for his wallet. If there's one chance for Amiga, Inc to get out of its financial slump (and pay all their debts etc), this is it. If this window of opportunity is missed, I think the Amiga is going to go through yet another upheaval next year.

Mmmm'kay - that was pretty interesting - just what was needed for a rainy Monday morning..!

...but can anyone explain what this bit means?

Fleecy (Question 3) :
... as is the case with AmigaOS4.0, to be the first PPC version of the AmigaDE.

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Poster: CodeSmith Date: 13-Oct-2003 4:35:37 I bet there are two mustachio'd fat men that are even busier right now

What, Mario and Luigi? Are Nintendo getting involved???

/rumourmill

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@Chunder

It means that AmigaOS 4.x will (or is planned to) be the first PPC OS to run a port of AmigaDE.

/Björn

Very Good session!!!!

Ps: AmigaOne notebook? COOL

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ikir

My Question is answered ! (...almost... )

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AmigaOS, the last hope...

Nice to see the questions i was to lazy to ask answered anyway Thanks Smithy...

Honestly I think it all sounds fine regarding Hyperion/Eyetech and OS4, but regarding AA/DE.. :( Well a couple of new gamepacks or downloads just isn't enough to make it a succes or ensure a decent cashflow.

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@Björn

Yeah, that's kind of what I took it to mean, except that I don't recall seeing this statement mentioned anywhere else...

AIUI, AmigaDE wasn't going to be integrated until AOS5.

Oh well - if Fleecy says OS4.x, then I'm happy

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Nice to see Fleecy talking about and planning future projects as we apparently draw close to the release of AOS4.

Some good questions/answers too.

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Hey Fleecy,

You rock when you say what's in your heart.
I really like you opinions about alternative platforms and what they are trying to do.

I always have defended this idea, but unfortunately, it seems that, like in politics, the one who owns the sweeter words is the one who wins....So I hope OS4 will be released before elections;);)

Nice, I'm shure all the community wants Amiga members not to talk in peacefull words, but rather say what's in their mind!!!!

There is a flame wars since a long time just because Amiga people are doing so (without any clear explanation from the mother compagny).

I think it's unfortunate that Question 1 was asked. When people are being asked to reduce the hostility level, flaming, etc., setting Fleecy up with this kind of question is -- to say the least -- counterproductive. His responses only provide more fuel for the flamewars. His arrogant description of mudslingers is far from accurate when, in many cases, what people are doing is merely posting court documents that describe Amiga, Inc.'s mismanagement. The documentation is not flattering to Amiga, Inc. And the record of statements by Amiga, Inc. staff concerning those issues is not flattering to the company or the platform.

The question itself is misleading:
Quote:

However for some years now there have been rival groups actively trying to bring havoc to Amiga forums and spread around negative information or fantasy stories to harm Amiga efforts in any way they can.

There may be isolated individuals who want to do this, but it is incorrect to say there are "rival groups" doing it. People have jumped in and out of "thread wars" but there really is no concerted effort. There doesn't need to be; Amiga, Inc. is fairly adept at shooting itself in the foot already. The fact that Fleecy seems to accept the question's description as accurate indicates how warped his view of reality is, if he believes it, but I doubt if he does, privately.

Then his answer:
Quote:

What is interesting is to trace the evolution of these attacks and notice how as each one is disproved, new rumours and different angles of attack appear. Amiga Inc has been bankrupt more times than a banana republic, we've had multiple CEOs, the AmigaOne would never work, AmigaOS4.0 would never see the light of day - on and on ad infinitum.

It's an old debating tactic to mix actual claims of opponents with fictional ones that can be easily disproved, thus creating the impression that the opponent's case is baseless. In fact, no one is saying AmigaOS4.0 will never see the light of day; and I don't recall anyone saying the AmigaOne would never work. Don't fall for this kind of rhetorical trick. Consider the real criticisms Amiga, Inc. has received, not Fleecy's fabrications.

In fact, the problem is that the real attacks are *not* disproved. There are still unanswered questions involving the status of the company and so on that we have not gotten straight answers to. Yes, as an example, what about the multiple CEOs? This has never been explained -- and don't point me to Fleecy's previous "explanation" because that doesn't square with what Bill McEwen stated in court or with what a number of other people have said regarding their encounters with Garry Hare at industry shows, etc.

It's tedious to bring this up again, which is precisely my point: the question should have been turned down as inflammatory. It only stirs things up and makes Fleecy look pompous and foolish as he insults others and skates around the facts. If Fleecy is willing to give full and honest answers on all points, then, yes, by all means ask. But until that day -- and I don't know when it'll arrive -- we should just avoid asking.

If you don't want flame wars to continue, don't throw gasoline on the fire.

-- gary_c

@ gary_c

IMO the question is sadly very relevant to the current state of the "Amiga community". And Fleecy's answer is IMO spot on.

The tactics by certain groups of people have been felt by many people within the Amiga supporting community and even outside our little community (e.g. Mai Logic). I have been victum of group efforts myself and I know other people who have been in similar positions too, including endless cheapshots at ordinary Amiga employees (non-Amiga Inc staff), partners or even other relatives. It's a sad fact that cannot and should not be hidden from discussion.

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If you don't want flame wars to continue, don't throw gasoline on the fire.

IMO that's unfortunately something you are trying to do here. The fact that Fleecy answers the questions asked by AmigaWorld visitors as Amiga's CTO and that Bill McEwen still is and has been Amiga's CEO since the company's start is enough proof that unlike rival staff claims, the Amiga staff has not been fired (by themselves?).

And although the company has gone through some stormy weathers (just like the original Amiga team) they are still standing and determined to succeed.

@Gary_C

I think your memory is playing tricks on you.

It seemed until recently that Eva would repeat almost daily the statement that AOS4 didn't exist, doesn't work and will never be shipped.

I remember from a year back people claiming that it was all hype and would never be delivered sometimes they claimed it was because Hyperion were not competetent to the role.

AmigaONE not working? Heard that before now, usually in conjunction with someone hyping up the Articia-S situation ( mostly because they don't understand ).

If people would just stick to producing court documents and not quoting them out of context, spinning conjecture as fact, etc I'd think you would have a point.

No need to go into denial, people HAVE said these things and repeated them frequently.

I think it is more likely you just do not like this characterisation of what has been going on. However I also failed to see the point of the question - it could certainly have been put without inflammatory assertions.

Certainly Amiga Inc isn't the only company or person or collective that shoots itself in the foot - a recent "Ready For IBM" debacle proves that.

Someone like Fleecy, at the end of direct attack after direct attack ( and no one could say it is all deserved ) is only going to remember the negative, stinging criticism which they have demonstrably shrugged off.

Still, turn the other cheek and all that.

Dave.

Quote:

And the record of statements by Amiga, Inc. staff concerning those issues is not flattering to the company or the platform.

Ok, you're still alimenting the flamewar.

I was just considering that it was time for AmigaInc to give it's opinion on this situation clearly.I was happy Fleecy answered by giving a real opinion about this situation.

For shure, many persons are thinking like Fleecy, even if they stay quiet when accusations (real or not)and rumors (rumors are what they are) are spread around the net.

At the end, all of this will be finished when OS4 will be ready.

Quote:

AmigaONE not working? Heard that before now, usually in conjunction with someone hyping up the Articia-S situation ( mostly because they don't understand ).

Ok, just don't go too deep into another flamewar.

We need to stay decent before...how they said?
"The momentum is going"? or something like that.


Os4 have been seen around the world these months, so everyone knows that he's coming.

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Certainly Amiga Inc isn't the only company or person or collective that shoots itself in the foot - a recent "Ready For IBM" debacle proves that.

Well, I not shure about this, but having to be "ready for IBM" or something like that must probably have been asked some time ago before this debate. IBM is a big compagny, so before they take look at the computer and make a decision about ready or not, this probably take a month or so...So the approvment must have been asked before this debate. But...is it important to be IBM approved if you are running MOS on your computer?

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I think your memory is playing tricks on you. It seemed until recently that Eva would repeat almost daily the statement that AOS4 didn't exist, doesn't work and will never be shipped.

Hold on; I never said that Amiga, Inc. hasn't been criticized by people; I just objected to the way it's phrased in the question: "there have been rival groups actively trying to bring havoc to Amiga forums and spread around negative information or fantasy stories to harm Amiga efforts in any way they can."

To the best of my knowledge, this description reflects paranoia, not reality. Yes, there are individuals with axes to grind or whatever. This Eva person in particular seems to harbor animosity against Amiga, Inc. for some reason -- which I have no idea about because she is not involved with organizations thought of as "on the blue side" except now as a Genesi customer. Some of these people have come to be associated with "rivals" to Amiga, Inc. But I think in the cases of these people, the "rival" has been only a convenient foil. Don't mistake individual voices for some kind of organized group. This, despite Mike Bouma's experience with such a thing at one time, does not accurately reflect reality.

Keep in mind that AI has been criticized by people for not going open source, not going x86, for at one point saying Amiga as a desktop OS was dead, etc. etc. Clearly there is way too much disagreement among these critics for them to be part of any organized group.

Quote:

I think it is more likely you just do not like this characterisation of what has been going on.

Well, yes, of course. It is just this characterization that turns up the heat, because it reflects the actual situation so badly and with such a bias, by lumping all critics into a group and demonizing them.

Quote:

However I also failed to see the point of the question - it could certainly have been put without inflammatory assertions.

I appreciate the fact that you've been trying to tone down unnecessary partisanship on forums.

Quote:

Someone like Fleecy, at the end of direct attack after direct attack ( and no one could say it is all deserved ) is only going to remember the negative, stinging criticism which they have demonstrably shrugged off.

I think it's good to try and keep up morale, but to me Fleecy is buffing the paint on a car that needs an overhaul. I think his credibility is pretty much nil outside of the audience of devoted followers (witness the recent amiga.com downtime explanation that Ray Akey publicly corrected him about -- is Fleecy that out of touch, and if so, why make up something about his brother-in-law's wedding? or was that a joke? or what?) so at least in the broader community he can do no harm because people are already discounting whatever he says.

OK, this doesn't feel good to write because I know some people think my motive is just to discredit Fleecy or slam AI. As I've said before, I post on these threads because I read something that I feel shouldn't stand unchallenged. I feel Question 1 was a cheap slam at a lot of people who don't deserve it, but more, because it portrays reality so inaccurately. I don't think we'll get to the bottom of the issues raised until circumstances have changed somehow to enable the participants to speak freely, if in fact they ever will. So I won't post in this thread again, not wanting to belabor the point or offend anyone.

-- gary_c

Gary_c

I dont see anywhere that anyone,let alone Fleecy, has said any groups were organized.
To be honest your entire point on this is somewhat pedantic to the point of hair splitting grammatical construct of his sentances.The fact that he uses the word "groups" shows precisely that he does not percieve these people as an organized effort or he would have used the word "group"

In this particular situation I would say these "groups" are better applied to critics that are in a certain situation.For example, those that bought pegasos as they thought AOne/OS4 would never happen, those that are slighted by the coupon arrangement, yet another lot that are simply trolls and like stirring up trouble.

The thing Fleecy has said are true with regards to the type of rumors that have floated around, I have not been back amongst the community for a year and I have run across all of these accusations, and ran across them in the first week back.

Despite all of these things that have gone on, real and imagined, the court documents etc etc etc, no one, I mean NO ONE has any real idea on the real story or the real position of Amiga Inc, except Amiga Inc. itself.I find it strange that Amiga Inc. gets critisized for this lack of information, yet Genesi does not.

Anyway, before I digress, the community would be alot better off if people read such topics and articles with an unbiased point of view before applying thier opinions to what was said, it would save a huge amount of discontent and agnst.

Lastly, the english language is not exact, hell, even in mathematics you can prove 1+1=3, and things said can often be taken in one of several ways.

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@Gary_C

I agree with you. Question 1 was unnessecary and could
only lead to flame-instillment. Not only that, I think a very
similar question has been asked before in a Q&A (but in a
much "cleaner" way) - but my memory could be failing me.

So, Fleecy could have replied in a more neutral tone, sure. But
considering the many "dangerous" questions he got already
in the past, involving plenty of good bait and hints about
competitiors etc, questions which fleecy answered with
more diplomacy than anyone in this market, I'm willing to let
this one slip. It's not like he start jabbering about this out of
nowhere. He is asked a direct question about it after all.

That said, I would really like to believe the visions of fleecy.
But when it comes to him talking about the long-term future
of AOS5 and DE, I cannot help but to feel more than a tinge
of sceptiscism. Hyperion and Eyetech are one thing. I have
my AOneXE-G4 under my desk. I have seen AOS4 on AOne
in Gothemburg. Those project are sound and fertile.
AmigaInc and their plans for the OS have yet to prove their
viability, before I believe them fully, however.
Time will tell.
.
SlimJim