Quote:

Also Titan have been in contact with Amiga Inc and it seems to be in their hands if we'll see a native version for OS4.

That is always the easy thing to say. If Hyperion said so about OS 4 on the Pegasos and Genesi/bPlan, all I hear is "but it would open up additional sales"... Apparently, this is only a good argument if it serves your side of the fence.

Business as usual.

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@Kronos:
Quote:

We ain't talking about a small utility, but about a full-grown commercial app, that requires support and indept-testing, so having a working OS4-system is mandatory, and I don't think anybody is insane enough to develop such a beast on a classic Amiga.

Apparently, porting a whole OS should be very easy, because I always hear that doing a Pegasos version of OS 4 would mean an enormous amount of sales for us, and how no one can understand why we wouldn't do that, seeing how easy it should be.

The cost of the hardware is apparently also only an issue when someone else has to pay it, but not if Hyperion would need to buy it, nor is the time or the number of expected sales anything to consider if it is Hyperion's time.

Oh well, what am I trying to argue...

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@Rogue

Quote:

Oh well, what am I trying to argue...

eehh... if you don't know... who should then know???

as I see it there are a couple of things
1a) You are not millionaries (yet.. ?!?)
1b) Hyperion are not currently in Microsoft's size
2) You seem to have changed opinion of how hard it is to port OS4 to new machines,
from being easy at one point (just a new HAL layer IIRC) to now being hard
3) is there a third point????

Last edited by trgse on 15-Dec-2004 at 10:13 AM.

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@ Step
Quote:

Hmm, if everyone would buy a native OS4 version, would everyone donate 100 Euros to an OS4 OpenOffice porting fund ? Would it allocate enough funds for developers ?

I would be good idea, but I thin it is now too late for such challenges.

now we have PageStream4 (for OS4 soon) and Papyrus (version for OS4 maybe soon too), and I thin there is no need for OS4 port OOo donating.

please forgive me my lame&creeping english

_________________
I miss draggable screens in MorphOS... and do you? I know I'm in a minority unfortunately.

@trgse

Quote:

eehh... if you don't know... who should then know???

That's not at all what he said. He implied it's useless to argue with some folk.

Some people pull everything that is written out of context and misunderstand the original meaning. Just like you do here.

Quote:

You seem to have changed opinion of how hard it is to port OS4 to new machines, from being easy at one point (just a new HAL layer IIRC) to now being hard

It is relatively easy to port AmigaOS4 to new hardware due to the HAL *provided* there's adequate hardware documentation available and support given.

However it could still take a small development team months to port AmigaOS4 to new hardware and support all its features. AmigaOS4 is a complete operating system! (Loads of different things to test and to take into account, *including* the software which runs on top of it!)

Last edited by MikeB on 15-Dec-2004 at 11:33 AM.
Last edited by MikeB on 15-Dec-2004 at 11:32 AM.

MIkeB: Edited for name calling and personal insults.

Website policy further to be discussed in private.

Last edited by MikeB on 15-Dec-2004 at 11:39 AM.

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Quote:

You seem to have changed opinion of how hard it is to port OS4 to new machines, from being easy at one point (just a new HAL layer IIRC) to now being hard

No, I didn't. I still say it will take about a months. How long do you think does it take to port a 3.x program to OS 4? I'd venture to say about the same time, if not less.

Where's the point?

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Poster: Foody Date: 14-Dec-2004 22:56:14

>I don't get this AW.NET to be honest. It is like any door apportunity gets opened will be >slammed with negative feed backs. Here you guys are asking to petition PapyrusOffice for >OS 4.0 and when such offer have already been initiated this guy:

>mjohnson says and I quote, "While I admire the effort, I'm not sure how much effect such a >petition would really have." and he goes and add this suggestion "What might be more >persuasive would be a "release an OS4-upgrade package for a nominal fee for registered >users of the 68k release""

You know what, that idea sounds good to me. I am going to preorder - even if the 'upgrade' idea isn't set in print. I have to do something to support developers right.

@Chris_Y

Quote:

Why is this a reason to require Turboprint? I have a printer that is perfectly well supported by the existing OS4 printer drivers, so I don't need Turboprint.

Same here, I have a postscript printer with a build in printserver, so I have absolutely no need for TurboPrint, as it seems TurboPrint even doesn't support postscript printers.
And Papyrus doesn't have an option for creating postscript, which is really a shame. So it seems it would be hard for me to get Papyrus printing.
If there was a OS4 native version which would allow me printing, I would buy it for sure.

Ciao, Alfred

Here are there exact words what they told me when I requested for an OS 4.0 native,
"Hello Mr. Al Daye

if Papyrus will be released as an OS4 native version depends on KMOS / AInc.
With an 68k software we reach the largest market, a special Os4 version
would not cover its developing cost.

best regards" I end quote here.

Quote:

if Papyrus will be released as an OS4 native version depends on KMOS / AInc.

A very broad statement, if there is no specifics what he expects from KMOS/Ainc...

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I would be intrested in a native OS4 version. I would be reluctant to pre-order because of past issues with other pre-orders. This isn't any sort of slur against Titan I'm sure the have the best of intentions, as did a lot of the other people that ran failed pre order schemes.

As for Kronos statement that not enough people will buy as the market is to small, well that could well be the case. It is however, just a guess. No one knows how many would buy, perhaps all 500-1500 would, perhaps none. This is just part of being in business. The company involved, in this case Titan have to decide for themselves if the possible return on invesment is a good risk and worth the potential rewards (or lack off). No amount of polls or petitions will change their mind if they are not prepared to take the risk. Personally I think they would sell several hundred copies, but then I don't have any money at stake.

Alan

"if Papyrus will be released as an OS4 native version depends on KMOS / AInc."

Perhaps:
- the author simply want a free HW (in that case he should contact Eyetech, perhaps)
- he could also use cross compiler to generate AOS4 binary (and test it by someone else or by using AOS4emu)

Strange if he thinks it does not cover the development cost if MOS version covers MOS version development cost (also MOS can run the 68k binary). AOS4 user base is already as big as MOS userbase.

???

Well, most likely AOS4 version will appear, anyway, someday.

_________________
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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@Rogue

You are just as offbase your boss an A.org when you tried to tell me how much I was into BeOS......

I never said that porting OS4 to Peg would be easy, or that it would bring lots off sales.

I only got a strong point against people claiming that it was Genesi*s fault for not getting that goddam licence.

"No OS4 for Peg" was a decision made by YOU (*),noone else and the licence is just part of hoe YOU(*) made sure that this decison was followed through.

(*)"YOU" as in Royal-use, including Hyperion, AInc, KMOS, Eyetech,iTec, Amino or whoever came up with those ideas.

@MikeB
AmigaWriter ??? Someone really seems to like torture

And AFAIK it is NOT H&P, that are doing Arteffect-OS4 (which also hasn't yet seen the light of the day), but they managed to get someone external to do it for free with the promise of some small royalties on copies sold.

Dunno, who that is, but I would say that I'm not the only one who would rather trust "a Bill" than Onkel Jürgen ......

Bringing AW to an useable state would require much much more than just a clean port, looking at the version that came with Amithlon (which is probraly the last there was), I would even say that starting from scratch might be a better idea.

Writing just a wordprocessor (lets forget about a full office suite) with the minimal requirements is a multi-year project when done on a hobby-base, and 6 or 7 didgit one if done by a company.

Porting AbiWord (or such like) may go faster (still 1 year-minimum for a small dedicated team), but you can't really charge for it, and it's hard to to keep it exclusive to the "Amiga" of your choice.

And those 2 things may sound nothing, but given the situation, and the kind of developers still available in this community they will have an huge impact on motivation.

_________________
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- blame Canada

@Kronos:

Quote:

I never said that porting OS4 to Peg would be easy, or that it would bring lots off sales.

No, that comment was more general than that. I apologize if it sounded like that, I did try to avoid saying "you". It is just a general observation.

Quote:

I only got a strong point against people claiming that it was Genesi*s fault for not getting that goddam licence.

I object to people claiming that it was all Hyperion's fault, or Amiga's.

Quote:

"No OS4 for Peg" was a decision made by YOU (*),noone else and the licence is just part of hoe YOU(*) made sure that this decison was followed through.

Such a nice, general, and completely wrong statement. You don't have any idea. As I said frequently in the past, WE(*) approached bPlan in 2001 asking for their support on making a Pegasos version of AmigaOS 4.0, and THEY(**) refused.

(*) As in Hyperion
(**) As in bPlan

We then offered to buy a Pegasos when it was "only two weeks away", and didn't get one (I know that the blue advocates will now say we where not important enough for the grand scheme of things. OK, I accept this, but then, it wasn't our fault).

The licensing scheme was put in place by Amiga because of reasons that have been outlined often enough. Love it or hate it, they're there. Unless you know any specifics about that license and its conditions (and I don't mean BBRV speak) it is not yours to judge if this is reasonable or not.

Matter of fact is that after this, the chance for doing a Pegasos version on our own account was gone. What would have been needed then was proper negotiations (and I consider "Ben, come and get your Pegasos" and similar crap neither "proper" nor "negotiations") which didn't happen. Instead, more BBRV speak with things like "Some of you guys will make it happen", which, whatever you say, I considered to be a call for organized piracy.

The only "feedback" in this matter is insults from blue trolls how stupid we are not to support Pegasos, how we would be millionaires already if we only supported Pegasos, how stupid we where if we didn't support MorphOS etc ad nauseam.

Now I won't deny that after our initial attempts we didn't really try to make it any more easy for Genesi/bPlan, but I am damn sure not going to say that we are ultimately to blame for all the up.

Which leaves your statement the typical Krusty-the-Clown "it's all your fault" blue-tinted one.

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@ Kronos

Quote:

No OS4 for Peg" was a decision made by YOU (*)

An agreement requires at least two parties to agree. Your statement is as baseless and empty as stating "It was GENESI who decided: No MorphOS for Playstation2" If there's an interest to see AmigaOS4 for the Pegasos, its manufacturers should have negotiated a deal. They seem to lack interest in MorphOS, so I doubt they would suddenly show an interest in AmigaOS4.

Quote:

And AFAIK it is NOT H&P, that are doing Arteffect-OS4

Yes, AFAIK it's Stefan Robl who is doing the actual porting.

Quote:

I would even say that starting from scratch might be a better idea

Why? Bugs can be removed, functionality can be improved.

Last edited by MikeB on 15-Dec-2004 at 04:56 PM.

@Rogue

I don't know if it's a really good idea for you speak about other companies failed deadlines

I was in Cologne, and I'm quite I remember Mr Garda saying something like that (in public):
"OS4 is no priority for us, and they will get no "ExtraWurst", but we will also do nothing to stop it from happening".

That has been the official line eversince, and in the beginning it was enough for Hyperion to promise a port.

The number of Pegs build in early 2002 was very limited (~10), so it's no suprise you didn't get one. Looking at the state of OS4 at that time I would say, that getting one back than wouldn't make a big difference anyway. When Pegs where made in bigger numbers, you had allready set up the licence, so there was no sense in sending you one as the requirements weren't reasonable for Genesi. When I say requirements I mean those outlined in that ExecUp from April 2002. According to Ben AInc/KMOS still hold the licence in their hands, so it's there job to tell if those clauses have changed.

These clauses also make a port to existing Pegs impossible.

Back to 2002
I'm sure you could have gotten a BT2 or one of the Apriled boards available in early 2003, but you weren't interested enough. It was at that time that Ben claimed that you couldn't get a Peg, and that this would be the reason for no OS4 on Peg. But we all knew that the real reason lay with the licence, and since Ben made those claims in public it was only fair that Bill called his bluff in public too.

What is the situation now ?
There is no sense for Genesi to apply for a licence now, just like it never was, since the number off additional Pegs that could be sold are minimal and won't justify the costs.
Back than there was no OS4 to be bundled (except you call "just 2 weeks away" an OS -P), and now the market for OS4 is smaller, allmost satured and to an great extent hostile to the Peg.

For you it more or less the same, back than you had no OS you could actually offer to those interested in a Pegasos, and now you have destroyed most of the interest for it in most of the Peg-user.

But what happened to all the users who back in 2002 wanted "Peg now OS4 later" ?
A great portion of those simple left the scene, never to be seen again.
Another great portion found a new home on MOS.
A few of these are still interested in OS4.
Some waited for the A1/OS4-combo, but patience was in short supply.
Some waited for A1/OS4 till it actually became available.

O.k. where was I ?
Was the licence your idea ? YES !!!
Is the licence responsible for no OS4 on Peg ? YES !!!
Did bPlan/Genesi put any "no-OS4"-chips or code onto the Peg ? I somehow doubt that.

So yes, it was your decison, you may call it fault, you may call it a missed opportunity, you may have valid reason for not doing it, or may just not be interested, but it's still your product and your licence, ergo it's your responsibilty.

_________________
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- blame Canada

@MikeB
Sorry, but what are you aiming at ??

If Genesi wanted MOS to run on PS2, they would 1st have to bring laire to port it to the CPU used there (MIPS if I'm not mistaken), and then they would just have to find a way to do it (unhacked PS2 only run "licenced" SW).

Asking Sony to support such a port, would even go beyond the insanity usally shown in this "market", and it would 100% certain go nowhere.

As I wrote before, there is no sane reason why Genesi should be really interested in OS4, but that doen't mean that OS4 couldn't be ported.

Dell, Compaq,..... don't support anything except Win (and some Linux), but that doesn't mean that Be couldn't port BeOS, that the user can't install any open-source OS he likes (assuming HW-drivers exists), it just means that these companies seen no financial gain in selling computers with anything than Win pre-installed.

AW is a pile of crap, and I somehow fear that the sources are of the same quality as the binaries they can be compiled to. Starting from scratch can be easier....

I also remember that AW was discontined partl because the developer left H&P, so it would need someone new to work himself into the code and to remove the bugs.

Debugging someelses code is probraly the worst job you can get in SW-development, so I don't see anybody doing it just for fun.

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

@ Kronos

Quote:

but we will also do nothing to stop it from happening

So? He would not stop Microsoft from porting Windows now would he? Neither would Eyetech if they ported it to the AmigaOne.

Quote:

and now the market for OS4 is smaller, allmost satured

I don't think so, the enduser AmigaOS4.0 version hasn't even been released. Also the classic Cyberstorm/Blizzard versions are not available. I believe AmigaOS4 will gain a lot of momentum when it is finished.

Quote:

and to an great extent hostile to the Peg.

I don't think so. I believe you would see far less negative statements or Schadenfreude from AmigaOS4 supporters towards the MorphOS (and Peg) community than vice versa. IMO this reflects well in the comments made here at AmigaWorld regarding the current unfortunate situation the MorphOS community finds itself in.

Last edited by MikeB on 15-Dec-2004 at 05:44 PM.

@ Kronos

Quote:

If Genesi wanted MOS to run on PS2, they would 1st have to bring laire to port it to the CPU used there

Look, it isn't Hyperion that makes a big deal about the Pegasos not being supported by AmigaOS4. Hyperion currently has their hands full with AmigaOne and classic ssupport and not to forget *finishing AmigaOS4.0* already. It is *you* who makes a big deal about it.

Quote:

that doen't mean that OS4 couldn't be ported.

Nobody claims that. A port to Apple hardware would also be possible in theory, Genesi even promised to port MorphOS a long time ago.

Quote:

I somehow fear that the sources are of the same quality as the binaries they can be compiled to

OK, so it's just your intuition.