Kimmok wrote;

I have already SAM and MosMini & legacy HW. I better consentrate buying SW!

I DO NOT NEED x1000 untill I have SW that requires more power.
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Interesting.

I also have a Sam ep, and because of only 1 slot and no access to the FPGA,
my view comes from the other side of the fence. I don't need the SW until I
have the HW I can use it on.

It's Software NO! It's hardware SOFTWARE HARDWARE

Well you're just stupid! NOoo, You're STUPID

Boy! Those guys are stupid!

Quote:

Why would that be a better comparison? You're comparing a niche product (i.e., the X1000), with products that are sold in the millions (i.e., a PC). At least Apple machines are in a "niche" of sorts, even if it's also measured in the millions. It's just not realistic to expect a niche product to be priced like a mass produced one.

I do not follow... who to blame that one picks a subset of current technology which happens to be slower and costs more then the competition? What for do I ask? We're in 2010 now and yet OS4 is attached to a platform that gives less for more, will it ever be worth to keep down this route?

Do the costumer cares the reason why it costs what it cost, or does he care if it fits its need for its costs?

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According to the electricity price of last month, it seems that I would save 100¤ per year if I keep SAM on instead of the x86, if I had them on 24h/day & 365days.


(in real life I shut them both down when they are idle ... gonna get a network drive that can do (for example) bittorrent stuff by itself)

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@pixie
Quote:

I do not follow... who to blame that one picks a subset of current technology which happens to be slower and costs more then the competition? What for do I ask? We're in 2010 now and yet OS4 is attached to a platform that gives less for more, will it ever be worth to keep down this route?

With the numbers of fans out there I don't think competing in any meaningful way is ever going to be an option, but I think things can be sustained for a relatively small number provided the price is affordable for enough people. I suspect 1500 Euros may be pushing that limit too far, then again perhaps a price cut is part of the plan.

By the looks of it the X1000 could be a nice Amiga, clearly the most powerful yet. There's not a market for umpteen thousands of machines but hundreds and possibly low thousands at the right price.

It's all down to numbers really, if you can produce in hundreds you can get prices down - The Pegasos was produced 400 units at a time and apart from the refurbs, a profit was made on every one.

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@Pixie

Quote:

I do not follow... who to blame that one picks a subset of current technology which happens to be slower and costs more then the competition? What for do I ask?

This makes no sense to me. Are you suggesting that they should have "picked" something else? Like what? An X86 motherboard is NOT feasible.

Quote:

We're in 2010 now and yet OS4 is attached to a platform that gives less for more, will it ever be worth to keep down this route?

The price of the X1000 does NOT set the price for all Amiga hardware for all eternity. Look at the SAM 440, the price has changed over time. If things go well, and the market expands, I'd expect pricing to go down. Until then, be realistic with expectations please.

Quote:

Do the costumer cares the reason why it costs what it cost, or does he care if it fits its need for its costs?

In this customer [d]does[/b] care why it costs what costs because. Why? Because he/she wants the Amiga to be a viable platform, and that won't be possible if the companies that build it go bankrupt. Expecting the pricing to be competitive with mass produced and boring PCs, is basically expecting Hyperion to act like your sugar daddy, and subsidise your hobby/interests. We all know that there aren't that many of us, and that this does make things more expensive on a per unit basis.

Naturally, Amiga companies can't expect users to subsidise them either, so what's the value on offer to customers? The value for customers is that it's the highest performance Amiga OS computer, ever. This is a machine with modern features, and provides a lot of potential. If this is something you value, and you want to be part of "A new beginning" (see the A-EON ad. on the back of Amiga Future), then this is something worth paying for.

Hans

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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

A PC doesn't have to be boring, PC in the sense of personal computer, surely it doesn't have to be underpowered for the sake of it... A-EON had picked the given hardware, how different would it be to pick cheaper but above all more powerful hardware? Heck, even if it was the same price would have a bigger bang for the price.

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@Pixie

Quote:

A PC doesn't have to be boring, PC in the sense of personal computer, surely it doesn't have to be underpowered for the sake of it... A-EON had picked the given hardware, how different would it be to pick cheaper but above all more powerful hardware? Heck, even if it was the same price would have a bigger bang for the price.

Firstly, if the Amiga didn't offer people something that the PC doesn't, then no-one would buy it.

Secondly, no one is making anything that's "underpowered for the sake of it."

Finally, I ask again, what "cheaper but above all more powerful hardware" can they "pick"? What PowerPC CPU do you know of that's cheaper and more powerful than the one that they have? No, an x86 CPU is just not feasible. If there were "cheaper but above all more powerful hardware" that Amiga OS 4 could run on, then they would have chosen that instead.

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

Quote:

No, an x86 CPU is just not feasible. If there were "cheaper but above all more powerful hardware" that Amiga OS 4 could run on, then they would have chosen that instead.

Ah mr. Hans good day! You seem well knowledgeable and I like you. Please take not me post to be offense. I am think what you write is not feasable OS4 run on x86 but what if Hyperion port to x86 one board and still be charging Euro 1500? They include motherboard cost of euro 100 and then they make the profit of euro 1400!! Wowzer! Much more profit for them and I thinking this much deserved be Hyperion! We get the speed! Zoom!

No take offense I post often now about excitement for X1000!! I am a supporter get me not wrong. Just thinking of your post and one way to make it feasible.

@WiiNinja

Quote:

Ah mr. Hans good day! You seem well knowledgeable and I like you. Please take not me post to be offense. I am think what you write is not feasable OS4 run on x86 but what if Hyperion port to x86 one board and still be charging Euro 1500? They include motherboard cost of euro 100 and then they make the profit of euro 1400!! Wowzer! Much more profit for them and I thinking this much deserved be Hyperion! We get the speed! Zoom!

Assuming that Hyperion didn't go bankrupt from the lack of income during porting to X86 which would take a while, I doubt that anyone would be prepared to pay 1500 Euros for a 100 Euro board. However, a port to X86 just isn't feasible at this point in time. You cannot pay for the development of something today with money that you won't have until some time in the future.

I'll leave it at that. The "X86" stuff has been argued to death so often already.

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

Quote:

If this is something you value, and you want to be part of "A new beginning" (see the A-EON ad. on the back of Amiga Future), then this is something worth paying for.

Indeed.
In the end the current Amiga population is not made of casual users. Right now we are in a chicken and egg situation where some say "bring a super duper machine at PC prices running a fully realized Aos5.0 FIRST and I will buy it" while others know that this is our chance as the die-hard last surviving group of Amigans, to revive Amiga the way it always existed (read: custom Computer Hardware running AmigaOS).
And let's be frank, "deep inside" (veeeery deep for some but there nonetheless, if you TRULY look inside you ) that's the way we all like it.
Rest assured that with some success, prices will eventually fall.

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@realize Quote:

My question which nobody seems to have an answer for is this: Whats so great about super duper powerful hardware when there is NO SOFTWARE or OS components to take advantage of the speed?

People have answered you MANY times, can't help if you won't accept the answer. (I really wish you would stop it.)

(1) We already do have some software that can take advantage of the speed.
(2) Faster hardware drives more demanding software. No point in the latter before we have the former.

Last edited by ChrisH on 18-Mar-2010 at 09:24 AM.

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@minator Quote:

However, 1500E would be a stretch for me and I'm on a good salary, I can well imagine it'll be a stretch too far for many who are interested.

The price is what it is. AEon can't sell it at a loss! If you can't buy it then you can't buy it.

Quote:

Even a G5 can't match a Core2Duo clock for clock and the upcoming embedded PPCs are not that aggressive. That said Macs are expensive, a better comparison would be the Alienware Aurora, at 1160Euros that's going to be at least 4x faster.

There is really no point in comparing X1000 to x86 or Macs, since none of those run OS4.

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Quote:

Firstly, if the Amiga didn't offer people something that the PC doesn't, then no-one would buy it.

But exactly what is Amiga offering that PC hasn't, it's not even a case of less is more... perhaps PPC isn't alien enough, perhaps choosing other processor, slower and with less features will do the trick in offering people something that the PC doesn't. Because if it's not in price, it's not in features, surely it's not in speed, the world has to be spinning backwards so this logic can prevail...

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Quote:

You cannot pay for the development of something today with money that you won't have until some time in the future.

So how, according to your world view, was OS4 for PPC developed?

Well, the most reasonable answer to that would be with money they got doing other things, we don't know about, wouldn't it?

Quote:

You cannot pay for the development of something today with money that you won't have until some time in the future.

Much frighten times for Hyperion. Hard to see in next 2 years how they make any money Many of us buy X1000 soon but brings little money to Hyperion 100 euro times 50 of us. Can't wait X1000 though just hoping AOS not passed to another company Seem comedy Hyperion make awesome software but not so good at make business.

@Pixie

Quote:

But exactly what is Amiga offering that PC hasn't, it's not even a case of less is more... perhaps PPC isn't alien enough, perhaps choosing other processor, slower and with less features will do the trick in offering people something that the PC doesn't. Because if it's not in price, it's not in features, surely it's not in speed, the world has to be spinning backwards so this logic can prevail...

Why do you persist with insinuating that they're deliberately choosing something that's slower and more expensive? And what on earth is this "PPC isn't alien enough, perhaps choosing another processor..." thing? I have twice asked you where A-EON should find a better and cheaper processor that can run Amiga OS 4, and you have twice failed to answer, choosing instead to nit pick on one small side issue. Yet, you continue with the "pick something else" line of reasoning.

You're ignoring my questions and arguments, so there's no point in continuing. Plenty of others could tell you why they still use an Amiga, and would want to buy a new one.

Hans

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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

Quote:

You're ignoring my questions and arguments, so there's no point in continuing. Plenty of others could tell you why they still use an Amiga, and would want to buy a new one. Hans

Oh Hans! Can get frustrating I know. I think read the arguments and maybe this how people feeling. Feeling like A-Eon spend much money time for us to make whole new board just for AOS! Yeee, A-Eon, but seems like Hyperion maybe do little now for AOS? Hyperion seem give up making AOS forward a little. Much momentum in past but not can't update the bugs Acubes boarders like USB example.

A-Eon treverdickson spend huge resource with the time too and they not even own AOS but want it to live. Hyperion spend little on AOS compared do not want to move it in safe harbor, x86, makes many nervous. People natural like be safer than not safer. Yes?

Not my viewing. Just making summerize of peoples thinkings? Yes. Possibly.

@WiiNinja

Quote:

Much frighten times for Hyperion. Hard to see in next 2 years how they make any money Many of us buy X1000 soon but brings little money to Hyperion 100 euro times 50 of us. Can't wait X1000 though just hoping AOS not passed to another company Seem comedy Hyperion make awesome software but not so good at make business.

Actually, if Hyperion weren't good at business, then they'd be gone by now. Don't worry, there will be much more than 50 sales of the X1000.

Hans

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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

@umisef

Quote:

So how, according to your world view, was OS4 for PPC developed?

With money that they have today, of course. I'm not privy to their financials or the various licensing agreements, but we've heard that some things are under binary only licenses, and they only have a few full time developers. So they've definitely worked hard to keep the costs down. I'm sure that they have royalty based deals too, but full time developers in particular won't work on only a royalty basis.

If someone called you up and said, "we need you to work on this full time for X years, and we'll pay you Y months after it's all done", would you accept? No? Not even if they offered you royalties? Then my point stands.

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.