@bernd_afa

Quote:

What is a Modification? Any changes to MPLed files, or new files into which MPLed code has been copied, are Modifications and so fall under the MPL. New files containing only your code are not Modifications, and not covered by the MPL. Files which fall under the MPL because they are or contain Modifications must be made available as detailed in the license (or elsewhere in this FAQ.) Other files may be kept proprietary.

Now I have only skimmed over his thread, but it seems to me that in the onset it was determined that the source would be released for the modified parts as stated in the licence, however all other code created is not subject to that as indicated in the lovingly quoted text in your post (which I have conveniently emboldened and underlined for easy viewing).

So in a nutshell, the licence has been followed, and no violations have occurred. So what exactly IS the problem here?

Also, it isn't a good idea to go around accusing people of having several accounts unless you have evidence of that, in which case it isn't normally good practice to do it in public.

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Quote:

Files which fall under the MPL because they are or contain Modifications must be made available as detailed in the license (or elsewhere in this FAQ.) Other files may be kept proprietary. One well-known example of this is the Netscape-branded browser. It contains (and Netscape makes source code available for) many files from the Mozilla project, which are under the MPL. But it also contains proprietary code, for example to integrate with the AOL Instant Messenger service.

So basically it says that the Frieden's are planning to do exactly the same thing as the authors of the Netscape browser. I guess you are now going to contact Mozilla and inform them of this as you did regarding Timberwolf.

Oh no Bernd !

You are really making a foul of yourself.

The MPL and GPL are simple and understandable. Every File the Friedens got from the Open Source has to be published if they change ( aka modify ) it.

Every new file has not to be published, they are free to write API wrappers by there own it doesn't matter if they are linked dynamic ( xyz.library ) or static ( xyz.obj by GCC toolchain ).

I believe what they want to do violates the idea of open source software, OSF is the idea that formed the Amizilla bounty, everything should be open every change, every enhancement should be usable for all. But as long as they don't violate the MPL or GPL they are acting legal.

So stop your attacks against the Friedens I know, you would like to have AOS4 on 68k or the AOS4 code open for a port to 68k on UAE, AROS is just your second choice 'cause you could not get your hands at AOS4. If you want to do something useful, port MOS OWB to 68k MOS OWB has some enhancements over the AOS4 OWB, stop graving for AOS4 you always claimed you could do better, so do it !

Last edited by Arko on 03-Oct-2009 at 06:17 PM.

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I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

>So stop your attacks against the Friedens I know, you would like to have AOS4 on >68k or the AOS4 code open for a port to 68k on UAE, AROS is just your second >choice 'cause you could not get your hands at AOS4. If you want to do something >useful, port MOS OWB to 68k MOS OWB has some enhancements over the AOS4 >OWB, stop graving for AOS4 you always claimed you could do better, so do it !#

ok, i give up make no sense,
i think also not that timberwolf come soon and stable from the friedens, but the devs that make very fast OWB and blender in several releases on MOS, i see more chances that they can get a firefox stable working, but when they do same as the friedens so that the friedens cant use their code to finish the project is a more problem i think....

then lets see what happen, if the not releasing of source really help OS4.

Last edited by bernd_afa on 03-Oct-2009 at 06:33 PM.

@bernd_afa

Quote:

I fear now that the friedens begin to avoid releasing all source in opensource soft, is the begin of total red versus blue war and the MOS side do same. Not that the friedens or somebody else can make profit in that way out of the opensource written and give nothing back until a OS4 system is buy. maybe ask fab or other MOS devs if they still release their work in OWB (flashplayer)Blender complete in source, if they must fear that the frieden guys catch them and find ways to make money with it.

You're being a bit melodramatic now.
Some devs choosing not to make their work open source is hardly the basis for OS wars.

I honestly think you need relax a bit and come back to this thread in a calmer frame of mind.
Your attacks on the Friedens and afxgroup are unwarranted and unjustified.
In all honesty, I really do believe that it's behaviour like that, which will reignite the OS wars.

There has been far too much chest beating/smugness/flame baiting on this site of late due to the reactions of some people to various events in the OS4 and MOS camps.
This is what will split the community and will kill off any goodwill that exists between the camps

Last edited by TiredofLife on 03-Oct-2009 at 06:54 PM.

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@TiredofLife

Quote:

You're being a bit melodramatic now. Some devs choosing not to make their work open source is hardly the basis for OS wars.

He's searching for a reason, any reason, why this announcement it bad and will fail. Just ignore him.

Hans

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@Steve
>So in a nutshell, the licence has been followed, and no violations have occurred. So >what exactly IS the problem here?

when you look in opensource software, the platform specific files contain lots code that is same on all OS.thats the skeleton.the NPL say as soon you use existiung code you must make it opensource.

there are only few Parts in that files, that call the OS specific API call and need modify,for example to open a window.but on all platformspecific files this is in the same file as the Skeleton and API call of the backend.

so when somebody make a closed source platform specific version he cant only change the windows open window API Call to Amiga API Call and keep the file closed.

He must put in the file he release a function call to a abstract openwindow function.here he need add code too, that the pars are convert to this abstract openwindow call.

and thats what he must release.

when somebody look at source, then maybe the code is here.

os4->openwindow(width,height,...)

then in his own file is then a function that implement the os4-->openwindow( ) to open amigaos window.

thats of course cost speed, because the pars must first wrap to the abstract call and then put in the func, and then do the real call.

there is also possible to implement the whole backend/platformspecific file with own written code, but thats risky.Or do you think when the sourcecode is in many opensource files see, the closed source devs do really not just only copy the existing source in their closed source file, if that is so easy possible ?

but all in all, thats what can make close source is really no problem, read a beginner tutuorial in amiga mgazin and you can implement in few hours such a function
and when here stand os4->openwindow(width,height,...)

then its better remove this code and add it direct instead use a own file,

So that the friedens not release all source is really not much problem, its as i say more symbolic and show that they dont like that other OS use their code.

Ok, this cost the other OS some hours more, but its no complicate work, but the other side say then maybe , hey when the friedens not release the source, wy should i release the source.Not that they make out of my free source money easy.

In the past when the OS4 side port something, MOS side can use the code and easier finish the port.

in this save time the MOS side can do a port and the OS4 side have it more easy.

and now when maybe the total war begins, then every side must all do alone, result, the develpoping of Software need more longer, and when the software developing of future OS get more slower than in past, i think thats not good for the "future" of this OS to sell.

blender is currently at 2.49b.What Version of OS4 blender is then release, when its done ?

Last edited by bernd_afa on 04-Oct-2009 at 08:33 AM.

@Hans
There are people who fear one specific thing: They that they can't get their hands on the sources of ports for more or less API compatible systems. If someone i.e. ports some open source GNU software to - let's say - MorphOS then THIS kind of people are very eager to get hold of this ported sources, 'cos they in turn can now port the port to another enviroment (i.e. AmigaOS 3.x). It's easier to do so, 'cos the hard work of implementing Amiga'ish APIs, re-engineering GUI stuff etc. is already done. Now imagine the original porter (in this example a MorphOS coder) doesn't publish his ported sources ... this might not be nice and it is maybe not "future proof", but it definitely makes some people fall into a state of PANIC...

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@cha05e90

>MorphOS then THIS kind of people are very eager to get hold of this ported sources,

no, they release it, here you can see the source from netsurf, itix/chris do(in dir MUI/amiga).netsurf have a implement amiga like GUI, the firefox the friedens do have not amiga GUI.

I think mostly in the past there was no Firefox do, because users cry then i want a amiga alike browser with amiga GUI.

The AROS OWB is btw a MUI plugin, that can use in other programs.

here you can look at (old) source, do you really think the firefox port the friedens do use more AOS source ?

http://source.netsurf-browser.org/branches/itix/netsurf/

but thats what the friedens now do, you can compare more with the netsurf SDL Version.i btw dont undersatand wy there is no XUL GUI backend for SDL.

oh wait, maybe thats here, because Cairo can use opengl and opengl can use in SDL..

firefox use a own GUI, it need only some openwindow funcs and Cairo and messaging from amiga.

>this might not be nice and it is maybe not "future proof", but it definitely makes >some people fall into a state of PANIC...

I really have no panic,
i only tell this to information people, so nobody can later say, oh i do a mistake because i dont know that.in firefox have no Amiga GUI, it uses

Last edited by bernd_afa on 04-Oct-2009 at 09:15 AM.
Last edited by bernd_afa on 04-Oct-2009 at 09:12 AM.
Last edited by bernd_afa on 04-Oct-2009 at 09:10 AM.

@Bernd_AFA

Your argument is that open source software and source code sharing helps all OSs (classic opens source lover argument) but all I see in the real world is Closed Source ULTRA TOP OF THE LINE software, and open source stuff that can't hold a candle to those monsters (not in the Web Browsers category, but in everything else).

Whether Closed source software ends up being good depends on the skills of the developers, if they are truly good, then they can go the closed source way and actually earn a living with their efforts.

NOW, although Commercially developed closed source software is far superior to open source stuff, there is not enough of a market (yet ^__^) to attract those kind of developments to Amiga (not in full at least), and in the meantime hybrid open/closed source developments might appear, and I see no evil in that (as long as the license is respected as in Timberwolf case).

@ALL

You know those Cyberpunk cities that have class A citizens living in the Upper City and class Z citizens living in the undergrounds 300 meters below?

Well we are in the middle right now (although we were top of game once).

I strongly believe that in order to get back on the surface, the future of Amiga should give us a strong Closed Source Professional and Commercial Platform (like OSX and the likes), let's not abandon ourselves to the idea of ending up in some sort of open-source underworld ghetto.

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The amount of mudslinging in this thread is reaching epic proportions and frankly, this is what keep people like hjf/tf away from this site.

As I understand it hjf/tf will release all sources given that they abandon the project. So unless that happens there will still be someone maintaining the code.

I see little to no reason to nag about not releasing new files. The MPL was designed to be used in the way hjf/tf is using it.

This is a great happening for all people using AOS4. How can you allow it to degenerate into petty bickering over a few files of code?

Simply ignore the trolls and praise the people behind this.

If you really want to show your support (for firefox on AOS4), withdraw your cash from the Amizilla bounty and add them to project timberwolf.

Oh and GJ rogue&bro.

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@bernd_afa
Why don't you stop giving poor excuses, and just admit that you don't like the idea of TimbreWolf being OS4-only? Admitting your feelings is not bad, but justifying them with incorrect arguments is bad.

You are slandering the Friedens (that they don't follow Open Source license) BEFORE THEY EVEN FINISH IT. I say you are talking rubbish. PROVE IT OR SHUT UP.

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>You are slandering the Friedens (that they don't follow Open Source license) >BEFORE THEY EVEN FINISH IT. I say you are talking rubbish. PROVE IT OR SHUT UP.

I never have written that they not follow the licences.I also have written i see it make no sense, the OS4 Users that pay for firefox seem want that the firefox port for OS4 cant run on other systems.

i find it only not ok, from my social feeling that they catch code and do it in that way, because it look for me as the total red versus blue war has begin, that every side do their best that on another AOS cant compile.

And also there seem to be noone else outside the Amiga OS world that do such a firefox Port.

and btw.

What do you think when Microsoft do this out of firefox do it in same way as the friedens ?.should they bounty for that ?

Last edited by bernd_afa on 04-Oct-2009 at 03:11 PM.

@Dax
>Your argument is that open source software and source code sharing helps all >OSs (classic opens source lover argument) but all I see in the real world is Closed >Source ULTRA TOP OF THE LINE software, and open source stuff that can't hold a >candle to those monsters (not in the Web Browsers category, but in everything >else).

sure closed source commercial products can be better, if there are many users that buy it to financiete it.software dfeveloping costs a lot.also there need talentet programmers, that work fast so the hours to reach a feature are low.

If there are less money, then opensource software give better result.
If you dont believe, remove out of your OS4 any opensource softawre.I think your OS4 doesnt run, no cairo, no newlib no gcc

but whats really not nice, when opensoirce software is sell for a extreme high price.

Last edited by bernd_afa on 04-Oct-2009 at 11:47 AM.
Last edited by bernd_afa on 04-Oct-2009 at 11:46 AM.

Extreme high price?

Timberwolf will be free (Donations are not a "price"), also anything Amiga (software I mean) is quite low priced, I come from a world where my office copy of Autodesk's 3DS Max costs ¤4000, that is Extreme high price ( )

Last edited by DAX on 04-Oct-2009 at 01:10 PM.

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@bernd_afa Quote:

I never have written that they not follow the licences.

You have written so much stuff, in quite appalling & incoherant English, that it is (to be honest) quite hard to tell WHAT you think or are objecting to. My main wish is that you write less & more carefully - but you ignored that request.

Quote:

I also have written i see it make no sense, the OS4 Users that pay for firefox seem want that the firefox port for OS4 cant run on other systems.

It makes perfect sense. Porting Firefox to OS4 is MUCH less work than porting it to OS3, OS4, AROS & MOS. Thats why the Amizilla bounty has not been collected, and maybe never will.

Porting Firefox to OS3 (which is supported by OS4, MOS & possibly AROS) is still very hard, because OS3 lacks many modern features. And OS3 is dead-end (no longer developed, despite your wishes), which is why we have OS4 (based on same source code as OS3).

Quote:

i find it only not ok, from my social feeling that they catch code and do it in that way, because it look for me as the total red versus blue war has begin, that every side do their best that on another AOS cant compile.

No, it is call "friendly competition". MOS has a Blender port & Sputnik that AROS & OS4 (currently) does not have. Why can't OS4 have a Firefox port that MOS & AROS do not have? Competition is GOOD, as long as it is not "cuthroat stab-you-in-the-back" competition AKA "war".

Friedens do not start a war... YOU are the one trying to start a war. Please think about it.

Quote:

And also there seem to be noone else outside the Amiga OS world that do such a firefox Port.

Wrong, the Firefox license allows it, so it happens. For example, check-out the Firefox port on the Nokia N900 (it is not called Firefox, but I believe contains custom/private code). In fact, the whole Maemo OS (based on Linux) for N900 contains custom private code that only Nokia have.

Google's open-source Android OS contains private code for essential functionality that only Google can distribute (see recent upset when people discovered this).

If Mozilla didn't want to allow this with Firefox, they should have picked a different license! Tough luck you don't agree with their choice to allow it. Please stop whining & get over it.

Last edited by ChrisH on 04-Oct-2009 at 03:47 PM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 04-Oct-2009 at 03:46 PM.

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@pixie
Quote:

You should try pushing your platform alone forward with your own set of software, not with a set of software which is by it's own nature wahh wahh wahh whine whine whine

Looks like sour grapes to me.

Mod note: Don't misquote people on purpose, especially with a dig in it, you would not want to be mis-quoted, no one would. This is an official warning.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 04-Oct-2009 at 07:01 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 04-Oct-2009 at 07:01 PM.

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@bernd_afa

You are a nuisance. Somebody has to tell you that, sorry.

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Cha05e90, bernd_afa attacks anything not 68k, he's not a MorphOS supporter...

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@Zardoz
Yep, I know. It seems to me, that he's unlucky about the both OS flavours that are not 68k and are not AROS as well.
Another thing MorphOS and AmigaOS 4.x have in common ...

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